Give War a Chance
I believe it was Winston Churchill who said something like, "all that's needed for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing." It’s a hot topic. Blood pressures rise. Pupils narrow. But, its one we need to discuss-war. Often ive been asked: “How can a holy God condone all of the wars in the Bible?” or "why was God so mad in the OT?" Indeed it seems that there is a conflict between the God of the Old Testament and the Jesus, the Prince of Peace, of the New Testament. I’m not quoting him verbatim, but I recently read where Elton John believes that most of the world’s problems would be eliminated if the world’s religions were eliminated. He probably forgot that the biggest wars of the 20th century were caused by atheism, Nazism, Communism, and imperialism.
War is in the Bible and at times God even commanded it. At times God used Israel as His instrument for judgment upon godless and immoral governments and societies. And, at times Israel was on the receiving end (this, for example, was Habbakkuk’s beef w/God and of course, the book of Lamentations is lamenting the invasion of Jerusalem). In some ways, the book of Joshua is like a military manual. I know that this is Totally P-Inc but we must always remember that the Bible reveals who God is and not who we think He should be. What we do know is that war, at times, must be just, bc God cannot make immoral commands.
The question then is: what about today?
In the USA war brought an end to slavery in the 19th c. and in the 18th c. it took a war to insure our freedom of worship. In the 20th war brought an end to Nazism and checked the spread of communism.
2ndly, Is it ethical to have the power to intervene but not intervene when a govt offers no resistance to murderers, criminals, etc.?
Jesus has already won the battle over the spiritual powers and in much of his ministry we see His efforts attacking the forces of darkness and reclaiming that which is rightfully His. And He is coming again. One day, we’ll see the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy and swords will be beaten into plowshares.
posted by Bobby at 12:35 PM
23 Comments:
"I know that this is Totally P-Inc but we must always remember that the Bible reveals who God is and not who we think He should be." Great line and Praise God that our concept of him has no impact on who he is!
"One day, we’ll see the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy and swords will be beaten into plowshares."
This is great too, but it will only happen after a war the likes have never been seen...only then will the Prince of Peace reign here as he does already in heaven.
I don't think I have quick answers to your questions, but I know some things are worth fighting for, many who decry war don't believe that anything is...I think that is sad!
1:25 PM
Basically I think God view death different than we do. I have thought that for a while. We see death as an end. God does not. We see death as something horrible. God sees it as a logical end to what he started. The only thing that God sees as bad in death is the reasons why someone died. For instance, God does not condone murder. Murder is done for selfish reasons. However, God does not call war murder.
Today? Well I don't think God has changed on this. I think there are just wars. I think that God still does not condone murder. I think it all depends on the motivation and the cause and not the general idea of war.
Is it just to intervene?
I think it is. Like I said above, it depends on your motivation. Was it just to Saddam Husein? Some say no, some say yes. Personally, I think it was... however, if he repented then I would say not to kill him. To my knowledge he did not repeat though.
4:05 PM
Well put. The controversy is in which humans make the decisions on what is just. Can this be accomplished if the leaders do not believe in the God of the Bible? I dont know. Hope youre well and heard a rumor you may be teaching a class at Phoenix Seminary this Spring...
TG
3:33 PM
B, first of all myspace myspace myspace.
when when when are you going to come over to it.
Thanks again for being so concise on sucha confusing topic. The psalms seem to grieve about war, the prophet isaiah talked about beating the swords into plowshares, Jesus talks about turning the other cheek and you said Joshua was like a military manual but Revealtion is too. anyhoo I do think I understand it a little better now. in thinking it over i believe that yes, it would be wrong for a govt to not intervene if the people of another country were being killed, abused, raped. and finally, myspace mypace myspace :) See you ssssoon b.
7:32 PM
Whats up B how you doin brotherin? War is one of the toughest subject i find to debate on. All the point you put out are right on, cause there is alot of stuff about war in the bible, but at the same time there all called by christ and not man. All though alot of man made war has changed stuff for the good, but there has been alot of war that has just taken lives.Personally i dont like war i think its stupid, but the war for christ is waht we trully need to be fighting for instead of for man. Mostly cause our lives are so short we need to fight the good fight(1 Timothy6:12), and remember that to live is christ and to die is gain(Philippians1:21). So ill fight for god and my brothers & sisters but not the world.
6:55 PM
well i guess someone has to disagree. all i know is that eventually there will be no war; therefore, if I desire to see that day brought near i must need do my best to mimick that day. (does that make sense?)
although i believe in 'most' of the just war theory, i do not concede one hundred percent of it; and second NO war EVER, (especially those in america's past) live up to the just war theory.
"is it right to intervene?" yes - after all that is what Jesus did. But How did Jesus do it? through peace and non-violence.
i haven't studied war, and just war theory nerely enough to provide a decent congnitive answer; however nonviolence and martin luther king type stuff makes most sense to me.
cheers.
6:22 AM
The only problem with davetonns and enriquetas view and others like them is that MLK Jr wouldnt have even had a voice had it not been for the civil war. His view seems politically correct, raducal, cool, but it doesnt work because ultimately what he is saying is that the civil war, american revolution, war against nazism-ww2 (killing jews) IS UNjust! all of these were wars that the USA participated in. Check your politics and think it through a little more. i know its so easy and popular now to pretend that we are like the hippies but I beleive that we need to at least try to think it through a little more than what we have.
6:36 AM
Hello Bobby, its Carissa from UK. I'll have you know that your blog was the topic at our lunch today and we discovered 2 old Latin items that may be of interest. Our generation is not the first to struggle with this ;)
Jus Ad Bellus i.e., Justifiable Reasons for Warfare
1. the war must be declared by a soveriegn authority
2. the cause must be just.
3. those who fight must do so for the intention of bringing about good and destroying evil. (The problem being who determines that? Whos morals? The talibans or the kurds?)
4. War must Always be the very last resort.
5. The Good achieved must outweigh the evil which led to the war.
Jus in Bello (just conduct in war)
1. Innocent civilians should not be killed.
2. The force used must be in proportion to the needs of the situation.
Hope to see you soon.
Carissa
3:04 PM
EXCEPT FOR ENDING SLAVERY, FASCISM, NAZISM AND COMMUNISM,
WAR HAS NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING!
IT'S FUNNY HOW THE BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS FORGET THAT!
THERE IS EVIL IN THIS WORLD PEOPLE, AND THE EVIL THING TO DO IS SIT ON YOUR HANDS AND DO NOTHING.
WILL YOU FIGHT FOR THOSE AROUND THE WORLD FOR THOSE WHO ARE OPRESED BY EVIL DICTATORS? OR, WILL YOU CONTINUE TO WHINE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS COUNTRY AND HOW HORRIBLE WE ARE?
WAKE UP!
6:38 PM
Bobby,
Just another thought, if you'll indulge me....I may be a "hippie" at the same time that I'm a Christian, but I don't consider myself a pacifist. You make several good points regarding the Biblically historical perspective on war. This being said, it is specifically because war is as "hellacious" as it is that its declaration must only be after other means are exhausted. Its mandate must be specific and clear, in terms of mission and motivation. The war in Iraq has failed all of those tests due to a President's personal agenda being advanced through veiled deceit and conflict of interest. Many Christian Republicans (the terms can be used interchangeably these days...sigh...) have been reckless in their haste to assume that "God is on our side" in this conflict because, after all, George Bush's election was providentially ordained, therefore his decisions must be, too. This is not only bad politics, it's bad theology, as well. My family members live on the front lines of nations guilty of egregious human rights violations, and therefore we have the ability to judge (as opposed to most arm-chair Christians I know) the legitimacy of the notion that the United States step in at every turn to right all of the political wrongs in the world. War must be reserved for direct and eminent danger posed to ourselves or close allies. Beyond this, as in the current conflict, the waters become murky enough to divide the nation and, sad to say, the Church as well....
10:01 PM
Sorry, one other thing....Communism to a degree, and specifically Nazism are very much religious entities. Huge portions of their ceremonies and rituals were borrowed from occultic traditions, so perhaps Elton wasn't so far off after all, considering my ever increasing propensity to distance myself and my belief in Christ from the religious "machine" making so much noise these days....
10:15 PM
Wouldnt it be obvious that if a government is killing its citizens because of their race or because they want to worship God that the govt has abused their power. I believe we've been blinded by the media and blinded by political correctness that we cannot see straight. Some of you hate our president so much that you cannot think rationally any more. Countries like iraq and afghanistan under the taliban murderered thousands (DID YOU READ THAT-THOUSANDS) simply because of their race or becuase of their religion. Also, they couldnt blog!! They couldnt speak out on their leaders without the possible loss of life. Wake up. Put your politics aside, smell the coffee. Dont let your Anti-Bush disposition blind you from history and reality.
Steve
7:03 AM
Bobby, I remember you once talking about a book called the "The Last of the Giants" for which the thesis was that the author believed that the forces of darkness had placed all their eggs into the success of Islam because only Islam stands in the way of the global spread of the gospel. Makes Sense! Maybe the author is right and maybe there is a much bigger battle going on that we cannot even begin to perceive.
7:07 AM
Bobby, I just want to throw in a couple of thoughts for people to respond to
(1) While Babylon (and the like) were used by God to execute his judgment against Israel, he also turned around and judged them for it. In the same way, while God may use nations to restrain evil, it doesn't necessarily mean they will not be judged for it.
(2) There have been two 'Wars to End All Wars' and neither of them have ended war. Neither have Naziism, facism, slavery, and so on been eradicated. They have been restrained.
(3) If we are going to let Just War Theory to be our guide, then we must let the theory judge whether our wars are just. Not only just ends, but just means (i.e. Hiroshima and Nagasaki, carpet bombing, torture).
(4) The point of Israel's wars was that God went before them and fought the battle. In many cases, they didn't even have to fight. The vision of Revelation is the same.
(5) Dare I say it, but the American Revolution is not a biblically justifiable war.
(6) How can one love and pray for their enemies and shoot them?
(7) If Jesus' cross is not simply an event that secured our salvation, but also a model for our discipleship, what does that mean for our response to evil?
Again just food for thought...
9:18 AM
Bobby, this is my very 1st blog reply. you really get so deep with your writings that I need to think about them before I reply. By the time I do your on a new subject. Case in point JC and I saw UFO's for real in 1981 at our cabin up in Payson. Some day we'll talk.
I think war is a necessary evil at times. I'd sure like it to be more of an international group rather than just the USA. However the "war on terror" changed this country forever and the UN doesn't seem to have it's act together.
Like one of your other repsondents wrote, I don't beleive we will know for 5 to 10 years if the war in Iraq was justified. I know the longer it goes on, our country will be more divided on many issues. We do some work with Packages from hHome for the troups and we are hearing where some of our military are being treated as villians. Shades of Veitnam.
I'd sure like something done in Dafur.
It's gratifying to know that we have an army of true Christ followers, and secular non-profit groups around the globe providing emotional, spirutual and physical relief. Rarely does this effort get the headlines it deserves. (Me thinks you had a blog on that subject too).
Well I wrote more than should, but I warned you I was a virgin at this blog thing. Hope to see you soon.
9:20 AM
B, forget all the politics. I absolutely love the way youre able to sum everything up so concisely. Joshua a war manual, Lamentations lamenting the invasion of Jerusalem. You should be a writer. or a preacher.
Kim C the princess of Starbucks
10:05 AM
or maybe you should be on the radio :)
10:11 AM
Love War and Hate Peace! No, that’s wrong. Um…Hate Peace and Love War. That’s not coming out right!
No sane person loves war. But why do good people go to war? — To fight for something greater than themselves. Thank God that these people exist!
Unless you are personally affected by the acts of an evil government, then it is easy to dismiss the need to fight. In America we have it easy. Imagine living in a country where it is condoned for troops to enter your home and rape your children. Would it be just to fight back? If you say no, please don’t ever have children!
Would you fight if your freedoms were taken away from you? If not, thank God you weren’t alive in 1776!
Then again, our freedoms are being taken away now, and here you are. When you are herded into cattle cars and taken away to concentration camps, will you wish you fought back?
Then there is always the thought that God allows war to accomplish something better.
Here’s a thought to leave you with: Would Israel have become a nation again without WWII and the holocaust?
11:10 AM
Hello everyone!
First of all, I think everyone has a pretty seriously good point here. I love that you have all developed your own views on this heated subject. I am a big fan of intelligent conversation. But I think that when we start telling our brothers and sisters that their views are "wrong" or telling them that they need to "wake up" we've lost sight of everything haven't we? I believe part of our purpose is to be Jesus in the flesh, but not just to those who don't know Him. We need to strive to be Christ-like with our brothers and sisters in Him as well. Just because they know Christ doesn't mean they don't need love from you too.
I've heard just about every opinion there is about the war and I'm not going to declare mine, call me an anarchist fool. But I am going to say this, how can we show the world who Jesus is through our words and actions if we throw the concept of love out the window the second someone disagrees with us? I love you all, honestly. I think you are all very brave for bringing your ideas to the table. I really admire that. But please, do it civilly, I beg you. For how can we intend to set the world right and make it a more just and peaceful place if we cannot even show each other the love we preach about? We don't know who's right or wrong, yet. Please love.
P.S. I would encourage everyone to check out Rob Bell's thoughts on the subject. "Calling All Peacemakers" is what they call it. Seriously, much love to everyone.
5:55 PM
sounds interesting - but i dont like the idea of being the world's instrument..
unless your objective is peace..
1:22 AM
To "Steve", etc...
People with my views are frequently accused of "hating" the president because of what he's done. I'm assuming that this is because we speak bluntly in regard to what's happened and our perception of possible motivations attached to those actions. As a believer, I can honestly say that I don't feel any hatred at all toward him or people who share your views. Mostly I really feel sad that we've lost our ability as Christians in this country to see Christ's life for what it was, then go about submitting ourselves in real dependence to that Life in order that some of the "fruit" brought about in our own experiences will be love and peace. That a Christian could come out against Biblical perspectives on peace and our duty of love toward each other would seem indicative, unfortunately, of what "church" has become in many large ministries; that is, motivational speeches and attempts at entertainment rather than the more "dirty" business of expositorily revealing to congregations from the Word exactly What and Who God is. Such concepts appear boring and archaic anymore, and I think we're beginning to see the results in the form of swarms of "baby" Christians who are never really challenged to grow up. When evil times prevail, emotional responses become the rule of the day rather than careful and prayerful consideration of how God would have us respond through His Word. "They shall know we are Christians by our love", not our politics...
3:53 AM
I respect the views of everyone on here. I alsobelieve that Christ teaches us to love. But, does He also teach us not to stand up for the abused?
Some believe the President is fighting a war on terrorism and some for oil. I really don't tend to see it as the latter as much as the former. If it were for oil, we'd be paying 10 cents per gallon right now and Iraq would be the 51st state of the USA.
Furthermore, whether you believe we should have or should not have started a war with Iraq is irrelevant. We did, so we need to finish the job. If we cut and run, we will leave extremists in control of a huge supply of oil. I'm sure you can imagine what they would do with the revenues. Think of the weapons they could buy and the delivery systems...
God is in control of the governments. We need to pray that our leaders follow His will and stop playing politics with the lives of our soldiers and also with the lives of Iraqi civilians.
If we leave the civilians in the hands of a country not ready to protect them, they are as good as dead (and in most cases worse off then being dead).
I pray that God changes the hearts and mentality of our enemies. I pray that He reveals Himself to them.
I wish that the prophesies in the Bible didn't have to be fulfilled, but they will be. I trust God that He knows what He is doing.
I also know that He is going to reveal Himself to the world during a war in which enemies of Israel seek to wipe her off the map. It could be tomorrow, or it could be 100 years from now.
Since God is ultimately using our country to pave the way for that day, should we cut and run?
Funny thing, all this talk about Iraq probably wasn't what Bobby was talking about (at least not directly). Sorry Bobby!
8:04 AM
You write very well.
5:59 PM
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